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User avatar OP points: 40 Reply points: 1,479
Bacon! wrote:
iced wrote:
Rich wrote:
You know i'm seeing alot of complaints about how easy you can make the game by rushing smithing or powerleveling illusion etc etc... Here's a though: Don't do it?

My gripe with this argument is that you shouldn't have the option. Carried to the extreme, it's like the devs accidentally leaving a KILL ALL button in the game that was supposed to be removed before release; leave it to the fanboys to tell everyone to just ignore it. Skyrim is a *huge* title that had a *huge* team working on it, and for their finished product to contain such gross imbalances is shameful.


That is the dumbest shit I've ever heard. Short of playing an unarmored character with only a dagger and no sneak, the game is downright easy. Most ES games have been like that. It's not Diablo; the point of the game is to enjoy the story, the setting, and the immersive environment while playing what you want to play. If you're the kind of person that's bothered by having OP skills, then don't use them. It's like playing DND and rolling the most ridiculous, gimmicky power-gamed character you can, then complaining about how the DM's levels aren't difficult enough.

Also, pro-tip: there is a KILL ALL button on the PC versions. Open the console, select a character, and type "kill".

I know about the console commands. I played Oblivion, and their always accessible and hugely variable difficulty slider told me everything I needed to know about how much they cared about balance in their game. (Answer: none.) Also, to bring up the console is utterly idiotic. The "cheat button(s)" I'm referring to are within the confines of the normally playing the game. I shouldn't have to explain that. Really.

Your "the game is easy and/or isn't built around combat" argument doesn't hold water at all. For killing monsters to be not that big of a deal, the game certainly places a lot of emphasis on it. Maybe you should call Bethesda and let them know not to waste their time developing a combat system in ES6. Or wait, let me guess, the combat is only there to pull in and entertain the plebs; real players like yourself know the game is about taking screenshots of pretty landscapes and reading quest text. Lastly, I can't comment on your DND analogy since I like my dick in girls instead of my hand. Wow, talking down to people sure accomplishes a lot!

The entire point of game balance for a single player game is crafting a smooth experience; in RPGs specifically, it's about balancing the gradual increase in power of both the player and the mobs. I played another game recently, Titan Quest. Early on I had a weapon drop that, when combined with two special rings, dealt fucking ridiculous DPS. The rest of the game I was looking for a weapon to outclass it. Guess what? There weren't any. It was an imbalanced weapon. Every single new weapon I picked up and hopefully inspected turned out to be a downgrade. For the REST OF THE GAME. That's not fun. That's imbalanced. To play with ~honor, I should've ditched the weapon and used the next best. But who does that? The game gave me the item. I didn't hack it. Replace items with skills, and that's what I've been hearing about Skyrim. (This is where I admit I've never played Skyrim, and despite my bitching I definitely will be doing so eventually.)

My point is that game balance can and does negatively affect single player experiences. Making the player police him/herself is not good game balance, and shouldn't be present in a AAA title like Skyrim. I'm not sure why you guys are arguing that.
Site Admin OP points: 200 Reply points: 2,943
The thing is, iced, that in order to use those imbalances you need to powerlevel single perks. If you simply play the game, it's not a problem. The imbalance comes from wanting to abuse imbalances. Sure, perhaps they shouldn't be there, but realistically with such a system there is no way for them not to exist. The fact that the mobs you're fighting level in accordance with your own is the balancing factor that's there to deal with it. It may be crude, but it does work to some extent.
User avatar OP points: 40 Reply points: 1,479
arnie wrote:
The thing is, iced, that in order to use those imbalances you need to powerlevel single perks. If you simply play the game, it's not a problem. The imbalance comes from wanting to abuse imbalances. Sure, perhaps they shouldn't be there, but realistically with such a system there is no way for them not to exist. The fact that the mobs you're fighting level in accordance with your own is the balancing factor that's there to deal with it. It may be crude, but it does work to some extent.

SURELY YOU'RE NOT IMPLYING I SHOULD PLAY THE GAME BEFORE JUDGING IT. Honestly though, it still sounds like it'd be really easy to end up with an op character by accident. What if somebody decides they really like a perk, and start pouring points into it? Surely that's not horribly uncommon. I'm never the guy to think I'm smarter than an entire company's worth of people, but why isn't there something like a hard character level cap on perk levels?
OP points: 7 Reply points: 496
Actually, I highly doubt the game is built around combat as well. I mean the basic combat is like in Minecraft. Click until the shit dies, with the very inovative and exciting feature of chugging potions against harder opponents. So yes, the game is primarily about the story and immersion, combat only serves as one of the tools for it.
User avatar OP points: 40 Reply points: 1,479
EvisceratE_ wrote:
Actually, I highly doubt the game is built around combat as well. I mean the basic combat is like in Minecraft. Click until the shit dies, with the very inovative and exciting feature of chugging potions against harder opponents. So yes, the game is primarily about the story and immersion, combat only serves as one of the tools for it.

Oh. Nvm then, I'll read a book.

ETA so I don't sound like a total dick: I was more or less assuming Skyrim had managed to innovate in combat areas as well. I mean, standard issue for hack 'n slash RPGs nowadays is at least combo systems and locational hits, right? Idk, I was hoping Skyrim would improve on all the areas I felt Oblivion was lacking (of which there were...a lot; I didn't even finish it), but it appears my hopes are generally dashed. I'll exit the thread, unless Bacon wants to e-fight.
User avatar OP points: 58 Reply points: 1,136
oblivion is only 5 dollars on steam right now, good pick up imo.

Also: I've grown very tired of both the characters I've made in skyrim and i need a new fun character setup that is not fists only :3 (sorry arnie)
My other characters were a stealthy khajit and an Elven destruction mage.

Thinking about doing a full out archery character(with minor one hand for the terrible situations), or a character that never directly kills anything.

any other suggestions?
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Site Admin OP points: 200 Reply points: 2,943
iced wrote:
arnie wrote:
The thing is, iced, that in order to use those imbalances you need to powerlevel single perks. If you simply play the game, it's not a problem. The imbalance comes from wanting to abuse imbalances. Sure, perhaps they shouldn't be there, but realistically with such a system there is no way for them not to exist. The fact that the mobs you're fighting level in accordance with your own is the balancing factor that's there to deal with it. It may be crude, but it does work to some extent.

SURELY YOU'RE NOT IMPLYING I SHOULD PLAY THE GAME BEFORE JUDGING IT. Honestly though, it still sounds like it'd be really easy to end up with an op character by accident. What if somebody decides they really like a perk, and start pouring points into it? Surely that's not horribly uncommon. I'm never the guy to think I'm smarter than an entire company's worth of people, but why isn't there something like a hard character level cap on perk levels?



Your comments are pretty fair. It's not an ideal situation where you can just create awesome armour and weapons that will destroy everything, but in doing so you'll have shit all damage other than weapon base (because you haven't levelled your combat abilities or invested perks in them). As for really liking a perk and levelling the shit out of it - it takes a fucking long time and a lot of investment to get good Smithing and Enchanting so you're only really gonna do it if looking to break the game. It's boring as hell, too.

PS. JakeJ - Light Armor 2-Handed guy? Anything that makes it harder is always fun. Archery's not bad but you need to rely on running a Companion to take aggro most of the time. I haven't had a chance to roll my Pickpocket only guy yet but I'll probably start it over the next week.
User avatar OP points: 58 Reply points: 1,136
arnie wrote:
PS. JakeJ - Light Armor 2-Handed guy? Anything that makes it harder is always fun. Archery's not bad but you need to rely on running a Companion to take aggro most of the time. I haven't had a chance to roll my Pickpocket only guy yet but I'll probably start it over the next week.


The pickpocket only guy sounds pretty fun, but i was be using to "indirectly" kill the people that needed to die. I would basically have to rush sneak and pickpocket to get the posion perk(?) to be able to do it. It sounds like a lot of fun to me because it would take the game in a completely new direction and go away from the mindless spam magic or swinging the weapons about.

The setup would be something like:
100 pickpocket
100 sneak
100 restoration
100 speechcraft
100 alchemy
XX Lockpick
And whatever other skills would deem necessary as i go about.

I can add an explanation later if anyone else is interested.
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Site Admin OP points: 117 Reply points: 381


Best unarmed tutorial ever.

"No one wants to be a walrus, put him out of his misery"

"Fucking dental appointment bitch"
User avatar OP points: 26 Reply points: 3,118 Location: West Coast
iced wrote:
Oh. Nvm then, I'll read a book.


If you create the main character of the book, decide how he fights, and control all his actions and decisions, then yes, that book would be quite a bit like playing Elder Scrolls -- that's the point.

All Elder Scrolls games have been easy, whether or not you abuse imbalances. The first time I played a melee character in Morrowind, I maxed out both axe and blunt just because the game got too easy once I had my axe skill in the 80s. Did it discourage my interest in the game? Not at all. I kept playing through with the character I had crafted until I'd finished everything I wanted to do with him. I was enjoying playing my character, not seeing how many tough monsters I could kill.

I think the main point here is that this style of game is not for everyone. The reason why I brought up D&D is because you need the same mind set to enjoy it. For example, take a quick look at this (very popular) post. Many of the popular DND classes are ranked into power levels, with the purpose being that you can play characters that you enjoy without skewing the balance against the game or against your fellow party members. Everyone acknowledges there are obvious power imbalances in most RPGs, yet somehow relying on players to police themselves seems to be a fairly effective policy. People who don't do that are avoided like the plague.

iced wrote:
For killing monsters to be not that big of a deal, the game certainly places a lot of emphasis on it


To that end, D&D and most other pen-and-paper's I've ever played are the same way. Combat is a large portion of the game, but it's not about who can kill the most d00ds. It's about playing a character you enjoy playing, fighting the way you want to fight, and enjoying the interaction he has with the world.

All things aside, I'm not asking you to enjoy RPGs or Elder Scrolls games. But, to say that not having the game perfectly balanced for difficulty is "shameful" is a little ridiculous. I can't speak for Arena or Daggerfall, but Morrowind and Oblivion certainly had similar balance "failures" -- and I still count Morrowind as my favorite game. You shouldn't be looking at it in the same light as games like Diablo, Guild Wars, or Titan Quest, because they are all fundamentally different types of games. And, as a final point, you're playing this game by yourself. You should be playing what you enjoy. If you enjoy having a kill-everything skill, then fine, use it to your hearts content. If you think it's stupid? Then don't roll Illusion or Conjuration -- or even if you do, don't use those spells. It's not a huge problem.
Site Admin OP points: 200 Reply points: 2,943
JakeJ wrote:
arnie wrote:
PS. JakeJ - Light Armor 2-Handed guy? Anything that makes it harder is always fun. Archery's not bad but you need to rely on running a Companion to take aggro most of the time. I haven't had a chance to roll my Pickpocket only guy yet but I'll probably start it over the next week.


The pickpocket only guy sounds pretty fun, but i was be using to "indirectly" kill the people that needed to die. I would basically have to rush sneak and pickpocket to get the posion perk(?) to be able to do it. It sounds like a lot of fun to me because it would take the game in a completely new direction and go away from the mindless spam magic or swinging the weapons about.

The setup would be something like:
100 pickpocket
100 sneak
100 restoration
100 speechcraft
100 alchemy
XX Lockpick
And whatever other skills would deem necessary as i go about.

I can add an explanation later if anyone else is interested.


Essentially something like that, yeah. Max Pickpocket for things like Misdirection so you can disarm mobs, too. Prob best to rock some Invisibility Potions and Slow Poisons as well as the obvious damage heath/magic/stamina ones.
User avatar OP points: 25 Reply points: 540
Skyrim is the first the elder scrolls game I play and for me the game is not too easy tbh. I just play the kind of character I want to (sneak+bow+dagger/sword+block+light armor+smithing) and I guess I had and still have to load several times just because I die against someone and dragon's still two shot me :<
However I didn't make use of alchemy or enchanting and since I usually don't take many hits or go into open fights both, armor and block, are quite low.
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OP points: 54 Reply points: 945 Location: hongKong/seattle
Jaden Stone wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhBiNx749Zw

Best unarmed tutorial ever.

"No one wants to be a walrus, put him out of his misery"

"Fucking dental appointment bitch"



that was fucking hilarious
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OP points: 0 Reply points: 1,241
That shit was hilarious.
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User avatar OP points: 139 Reply points: 1,926 Location: Earth
Jaden Stone wrote:
"Fucking dental appointment bitch"


LOL

Just need a mod to uncap unarmed. I love the animations.
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Why offer herds their liberation? / For them are shears or slaughter-stall,
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